Jack Bogle on Mailbox Money

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While poking around the Bogleheads investing forum, I came across a thread discussing a 2015 ETF.com interview with the late Jack Bogle that touches on the topic of mailbox money in retirement. First, a nice dose of Bogle common sense:

If anybody were to give you a blueprint, I would say put your hand over your wallet. There are no blueprints. There is common sense, and the obvious principle here is to be more conservative and more protective when you’re older than when you’re younger. When you’re young, you have a small amount of capital, you can take more risk, you’ve got years to recoup, and you don’t care about income. When you’re older you want to protect what you have; if you’re wrong, you don’t have a lot of time to recoup, and on balance you want more income.

Bogle on the idea of Social Security and stock dividends as mailbox money:

But you ought to think about all sources of your retirement income. Having said that, when you own an equity portfolio, don’t get into it for market reasons, get into it for income reasons. Oversimplifying, what you want to do when you retire is walk out to the mailbox on Social Security day and on dividend payment day for the funds—assuming they’re the same day—and make sure you have two envelopes out there. One is your fund dividend and the other is your Social Security check. The Social Security will keep up with inflation year after year, and dividends are likely to increase year after year. They have been going up. Every once in a while there is an interruption, such as the Great Depression of the early 1930s. And many bank stocks eliminated their dividends in 2008, so there was obviously a drop. But it has long since recovered, and then some.

Bet on the dividends, and not on the market price. You’ve got those two envelopes and that’s your retirement. If you have a pension plan (one that is not likely to go bankrupt—and a lot of them are likely to) that is a third envelope. You want to be concerned about whether you have enough income to pay utility bills, pay for your food, pay your rent or your mortgage, whatever it might be, every month. You want income to help you pay those bills. And in the retirement stage, that’s what investing should be about—regular checks from dividends and/or from Social Security and/or from a pension account.

The problem is that the yield on the Vanguard Total US Stock Market (VTSAX) or S&P 500 Index fund is only about 2%. That’s a lot less income than most people would like out of their portfolio. Here’s Bogle on a high-dividend stock strategy:

If you really need the dividend income, I see nothing wrong with overweighting high-dividend stocks, knowing you’re taking a small risk of falling significantly behind the total market. But you can own blue chip stocks, and you’re going to get a higher dividend, a situation I think would be attractive to an awful lot of investors. But once you depart from the market portfolio, you’re taking on extra risk. Any strategy may have done very well in the past, but in this business, the past is not prologue.

The draw here is that the low-cost Vanguard High Dividend Yield Index Fund (VHYAX) sends out bigger income “checks”, currently an SEC yield of 3.37% as of 5/31/19. However, roughly speaking, the dividend payout from high-dividend stocks is going to be more likely to drop with poor market conditions.

Alternative #1: Low-cost Value funds. While not from this interview, Bogle has said elsewhere that he thinks that Large-Cap Growth and Large-Cap Value stocks will have roughly the same average returns over the long run. The difference is that in Value you’ll get a slightly bigger share of returns in the form of dividends and a little less in share price appreciation. Growth is the opposite – less dividends and more price appreciation. Therefore, if you wanted to create a little more “mailbox money” than the S&P 500, you may consider buying the Vanguard Value Index Fund (VVIAX) or Vanguard Value ETF (VTV) with a current SEC yield of about 2.8%.

Alternative #2: Low-cost Dividend Appreciation fund. I can’t find any Bogle commentary on this strategy, but you could also buy into the Vanguard Dividend Appreciation ETF (VIG), which invests in companies with at least ten consecutive years of increasing dividends. This fund also has a ~2% yield similar to the S&P 500, but historically they offer a more stable and steadily growing income stream without sacrificing too much in total return.

In the end, treating your dividend checks as retirement income is not all that different than taking out about conservative 3% a year from your portfolio. If you really wanted to make your income checks equal 3%, you can do some tweaks like going with the Vanguard Value Index fund and the Vanguard Total Bond fund and get very close without “reaching for yield” with junk bonds or niche investments. My portfolio is different and yet the income still gets close to 3% when I track the dividends and interest every 3 months.

Bogle would also remind you to make sure you are investing in low-cost, passive funds so you aren’t giving away 1% off the top to a fund manager. If you have a DIY mindset, you also avoid paying a financial advisor taking out another 1%. Paying both of those and you’ll be missing 2/3rds of your potential mailbox money.

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Comments

  1. masterrwong says:

    What about
    Long-Term Investment-Grade (VWESX): Distribution yield 4%, sec yield 3.45% (pay monthly)
    compare to you suggested
    Vanguard High Dividend Yield Index Fund (VHYAX): sec 3.37% (pay quarterly)?

    Seems VWESX has lower risk and bit higher yield.

    • You are comparing two different things, long-term investment-grade bonds and high-yield US stocks. Investment grade bonds are likely to pay out reliably, but will never return more than the fixed interest rate. If anything, it will return less due to defaults. That interest rate may also get eaten away by inflation. The stocks will produce a dividend that varies but over the long run should increase. Historically the dividend has increased faster than inflation.

  2. From the end of 2008 to now, VIGAX outperformed VVIAX by over 100%. I wonder if Bogle will be proven right over the next 10-20 years, but it’s tough to stay the course when you see growth outperforming value for over a decade.

    • Actually, my understanding is that the past decade is exactly what proved Bogle correct. Prior to 2008, Value was winning and everyone was loading up on the value “factor” but Bogle was one of the few people that said that the race would eventually even out and that Growth would have a good long run again.

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